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US votes "Yes with comments", Norway votes "Conditional Approval"

Eric Lai reports "INCITS confirms: U.S. to vote for Open XML in ISO"

Despite an impassioned speech by the representative from IBM criticizing Open XML's technical merit, the INCITS board plans to stick with the results of a vote last Thursday, in which it approved a "Yes, with comments" position by a 12-3 margin, with one abstention

Norway has submitted a "No with comments" vote but has chosen to explicitly call out that this is intended to be seen as "Conditional Approval"

Standard Norge gir et betinget ja til OOXML ISO/DIS 29500

which I am told translates to

Standard Norway votes a conditional yes to OOXML ISO/DIS 29500

In several countries IBM have gone to pains to explain that they support the idea of OpenXML as an ISO standard, and that the best way to reflect that (typically unanimous) intention is with conditional approval as a "No with comments" - the argument goes "We're not opposed to OpenXML, in fact we'd welcome it, if these few comments were addressed".

It's the comments that matter, as Rick Jelliffe points out

What really matters is the particular comments: if they are doable or reasonable and inline with goals of the standard and the proposer’s conception of the standard, (and if no-one’s hair is on fire) then No means Yes. But if the comments are undoable or unreasonable or out-of-scope for the standard’s goals or depart from what is acceptable to the proposer, the No means No.

It's going to be interesting to see how these "No means Yes" votes are viewed next week. The cynic in me suspects the whole "conditional approval" / "we're not opposed" meme will be dropped by IBM like a hot potato.

As for the comments, it will be interesting to see how much duplication there is arising from IBM's global anti-openxml campaign. At least it will be out in the open for what it is then.

Comments

Chris Clark said:

Stephen,

As you know this is not about IBM v Microsoft.  It's about MSOOXML v ISO/IEC26300 used by hundered of thousands of open community developers.

Do visit www.odf-eag.eu/odf-metrics for the open source community statistics, and do observe the no OOXML petition is now more than 38,000 individuals, by name.  It's the community that doesn't want this standard.

Chris

# August 31, 2007 11:04 PM

Stephen McGibbon said:

Chris I see it almost entirely the other way. It's not about OpenXML v ODF at all - they can coexist quite happily.

There's no compulsion to use ISO standards Chris. Standards exist to serve communities of users, if a community of users want OpenXML as an ISO standard the process is designed to prevent a community of supporters of another format preventing them from achieving it.

Microsoft hasn't opposed ODF at any stage of its varous standardisations. However the "pro ODF" lobby seems to be almnost entirely about being "anti-OpenXML". That's not good for ODF in the long run.

# August 31, 2007 11:34 PM

Oliver Bell said:

I've been bumping into this misconception frequently of late, there does seems to be some belief that as soon as ISO adopts a standard that we all have to start using it. If that were the case I would probably be mailing this comment in from my x400 mail system, assuming that I could find an OS that fully supported a TP4 connection out to my TP0 based router.

The reality is that ISO standardization does a number of really valuable things for any specification, including a rigorous review process which we're all working on at the moment.

Once that is done then there is a specification of a recognized standard of quality placed on the library shelf next to many other standards, some of which it will relate directly to and some it will have no relation to whatsoever.

At that point if you want to use it, and in the case of Open XML many people do, then you can pull it down off the shelf and do so, if you don't want to use it then you're under no obligation to even recognize the fact that it exists.

As for the ODF vs. Open XML debate, it really makes no sense. If you’re completely convinced that ODF does solve world hunger (as some seem to want to believe) then it will be selected by the wider market and will eventually become the standard for document creation and retention.

If it turns out that some other document format has a technical or functionality edge then that format will probably be selected instead. Either way, the more comprehensive the library the more we’re all able to make an informed choice for ourselves. Nobody is going to make it for us regardless of the number of documents available on the shelf.

# September 1, 2007 12:36 PM

Sam Hiser said:

Stephen-

All the conditional 'yes"-es will be changed to conditional "No"s by tomorrow if the respective countries want their comments to be recognized.

Watch out for some last-minute changes.

# September 3, 2007 12:53 AM

RuiSeabra said:

haha by definition of the JTC1 Directives NO WITH COMMENTS *is* CONDITIONAL APPROVAL.

You're so full of it, that's what most of the TC Microsoft hijacked would vote: approval if changes to be made truly open.

Instead Microsoft preferred to fake support (Spain, with an official complaint, and maybe Portugal too, since at least one support is duplicate), to "pay" business partners (as in Sweden) and then later on say Microsoft had nothing to do with it, it was only a rogue employee (I wonder, do you have rogue employees hired just so they can be rogue employees as necessary?)...

Really... If I worked for Microsoft, my ethics would force me to quit. I'd rather work for Al Capone...

# September 3, 2007 2:00 PM

Stephen McGibbon said:

Welcome back Rui Smile You've reminded me of Churchill's response to Lady Astor's remark that she's poison his coffee if she were married to him.

# September 3, 2007 2:18 PM

Rui Seabra said:

Stephen, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober. ;)

# September 3, 2007 10:44 PM

Rui Seabra said:

And for the record, being called a liar for a couple of weeks by Microsoft employees (and totally crushing their parallel reality in the same news article by using my Right of Response to point out that I was talking about Spain and that they produced at least one duplicate support in Portugal) is beareable, maybe even funny...

but...

I hope the poison quote isn't a veiled death threat. For the record, if anyone close to me or me myself dies mysteriously... that remark makes MS Nº1 suspect...

# September 3, 2007 11:11 PM

Stephen McGibbon said:

Big Smile LOL

# September 3, 2007 11:21 PM